Where You're From Doesn't Dictate Who You Are: Rondo Bonilla's Story

Anoushka Sinha: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Conversations with Young Justice Leaders podcast powered by Pathfinders for peaceful, just and inclusive societies, hosted at the New York University Center on International Cooperation. I’m your host Anoushka Sinha activist, social entrepreneur, and a very proud Young Justice Leader here at Pathfinders. This is a space where we amplify voices that are changing what justice looks like from inside communities, not just the institutions. Our guests aren’t just taking things to the next level, they’re not just talking about justice. They’re living and surviving it and really reshaping it for future generations so that justice is accessible for all.

Today, I am thrilled to welcome someone whose journey is nothing short of transformative Michael “Rondo” Bonilla. They are a globally recognized Gen Z justice leader who turned their trauma of incarceration into power, purpose and policy reform. After being detained at Rikers Island as a teenager, Michael emerged not just as a survivor but an organizer a globally renowned policy movement. He now co-chairs the Future Shapers Council at Reform Alliance, where he works to transform America’s probation and parole systems. He’s been featured in the Black Wall Street Times, Reform Alliance campaigns and prominent personalities like Kim Kardashian and Words of Glass Platform, spotlighting young people in the future from real truth. Michael, we’re so honored to have you with us today. A warm welcome, and thank you so much for joining us.

Rondo Bonilla: Thank you so much Anoushka for the introduction. I appreciate it. I’m very grateful to be here. Um, there’s nothing short of God. You know, I do have a very rough past, which we’re going to get into, but I’m just extremely grateful to be the example of, you know, of young men who come from these unfortunate environments, places, and the boroughs of New York City. Um, and I’m just here to break the barrier, um, and to set the tone and, and I’m ready to do this interview. So thank you so much for having me.

Anoushka Sinha: So you’ve said this before in a couple of your interviews and I want to ask you about this. And I quote “I didn’t choose justice work, it chose me.” Can you take us back to that very moment when justice stopped being just a construct or a concept for you, and it really became personal?

Rondo Bonilla: Absolutely. Um, while I was in Rikers Island, this is when I got the opportunity to work for Reform. I was doing a lot of great work down at Rikers Island. At the time, I was a part of a program called Fatherless No More, and another program called 360. Fatherless No More was founded by Tim Johnson. Uh, it was more like, a Bible type of program and it was teaching us about the walk of life with God and how to be a man of God. And I never was really exposed to this. I grew up in a Christian household, but I never applied it to my own life. Um, so I applied it while I was in jail, and I did a lot of work. Um, from that program, jail violence went down 60%. Lala Anthony came down, she got involved with the movement, and she started her own program called 360.

So basically this whole, like, this whole entire time, me getting into this work, I didn’t go to college, I didn’t get a degree. I didn’t go to a job interview, I was incarcerated on Rikers Island at the time with two felonies. I didn’t know what my future was in store for me. I had no idea where was I going to go left, right, upside down, like it was, it was just like this was my passion. people actually are recognizing me for the work that I’m doing here. And like, I love this. Like it’s not nothing negative usually. But back then everything associated with my name was negative. Rondo Negative Rondo. Negative. So when I seen that people actually seem like they was recognizing the work that I was doing, I was like, okay, well, I’m starting to like it a little bit, but It wasn’t a passion yet, though.

Um, it became personal to me when I came home. I came home January 12th, 2023. I had the interview with Reform January 14th, 2023. Um, and I was hired right then and there. Right. I started as an intern. So this is my first ever job in my life. I didn’t work no job before. No corporate job, no, uh, fast food job. I didn’t have any type of job at all. This is my first ever job. So at first, this was more of a paycheck. Um, I didn’t have any passion for it because I was never in this field before, so I didn’t know what was in store for me. So I was just like, yeah, I’m just here for the check. Like, you know, I’m just do what I gotta do so I can stay out of jail, stay out of trouble. I’m working. You know, I’m gonna just do what I gotta do for my family. Like, that’s what the idea was until we went to, uh, California. Michael Ruben’s house and I spoke in front of a whole bunch of, you know, influencer Gen Zers. And I was just like, I don’t know if they’re gonna listen. I have nothing to offer. But I told my story, um, I told my story organically, authentically. And everybody in the room clapped for me. And we had people in there like Kim K, Michael Ruben, like, this is out of my world. I’ve never been exposed to this type of lifestyle. And on top of that, I never left New York City.

So it became personal for me when I was able to see that, you know, like, They actually cared and they wanted to get involved. That’s how the Future Shapers Advisory Council came about. that’s where my passion came through. It was when I spoke at Michael Rubin’s house and I seen like, wow, I have these, you know, millionaires, billionaires, like they actually want to they actually want to hear my story. So I was just so, mind blown. I just didn’t think it was possible. Um, so that right then and there, it became personal to me. I want to be able to talk to everybody. If I could talk in this room, I could talk in any room.

Anoushka Sinha: I love that. I mean, that’s incredible. So many young people struggle with, you know, being like, an outcast or they have, you know, so much doubt in themselves. And you really spoke about this so passionately and with so much honesty. So thank you so much for taking us into that moment. That clarity and the emotion that you showed us truly just translated how much passion you have for the work that you’re doing. And so I want to take you to the next question. Um, and it is personal, and you can choose to answer it in any way that you feel comfortable. And you were incarcerated at Rikers as a teen. What did that space really teach you? Not just about legal codes and fighting your own case, but about real lived justice?

Rondo Bonilla: Absolutely. Um, I realized that the system is failing us. Um, I live in the Bronx, New York City, New York. We have five boroughs, right? Why is it that there’s kids in Staten Island? Uh, kids in Brooklyn, kids in Manhattan, and kids in Queens. We all got the same story. You know, single parent household, whether that was the oldest sibling, youngest sibling, middle sibling. We was trying to support our family so our mom didn’t have to work as hard, or our dad didn’t have to work as hard, or our grandmother didn’t have to work as hard. I realized that it’s failing us. Right?

Um, it’s not even about what people were facing. It was about how people got to these situations. Um, so I realized I was like, you know, during my, my, my 19.5 months on the island, it really just showed me that these, These stories are too common, and there’s too many of these negative stories than there are positive ones, because the negative ones always succeeds. Right. If it’s gang related activities or somebody gets, you know, uh, shot or, you know, somebody gets robbed or something like that, but when you really tap into, you know, talk to these kids, really ask them, like when, when did you decide you wanted to go to the streets? A lot of them are going to say between the ages of 11 to 14. Now, I spoke to over 100 kids. Um, I went to a lot of different housing areas, it is too common for, uh, a young individual. It doesn’t even matter about the race. I just spoke to every type of race that there is in Rikers Island. But it’s just the upbringing of trying to support the family. Like that’s what a lot of the people was, was there for. It was even a couple of people who was there from like different states who came to New York to try to get some money fast. Right? Because they like old New York. That Idea of you to get a lot of money here quickly. We got, you know, all of this big job market and there’s a whole bunch of things going on where you can make money, whether that’s legally or illegally.

So it was just that, um, to me, it was like the system is broken, right? we’re failing kids. Um, and a lot of these kids need rehabilitation before incarceration. Not afterwards. Um, a lot of them never been to a therapy session. They never spoke to anybody about their traumas, anything that they were facing. So you build all of this up. And a lot of us, you know, especially me, I had to become a man. Young 13. That’s when I had to become a man. I had my little brother around. Right. So it was like I was in foster care, came home. I have a little brother I didn’t even know how to navigate and understand that, you know, I have a I have a brother that my mom has to put her first care to now. So to me, it was like she don’t love me. So I went to the streets. So it’s it’s it’s to broken. The system is broken and we’re failing young brothers, um, and sisters as well. And we need to do something about that. And the best way to do that is narrative changing. You know, storytelling. People like myself, people like you, people like Leah, who who get on these and we speak about our testimonies on a larger scale.

When I walked up, it was all because we needed money. We didn’t have enough for rent. We didn’t have enough food on the table, you know, um, like, what is the government? What is what is the city? What are people of power doing to help people in poverty? Because a lot of crimes come from poverty. Um, that’s that’s 90% of the crimes. Poverty, I promise you. Um, and it’s once we get to understand that. I would just say that the system is failing. Brothers and sisters. Um, and and, you know, it takes it’s going to take a generation like us, you know, and social media storytelling, narrative changes to really get into front of these people who’s passing these bills to create, um, real change.

Anoushka Sinha: I so wholeheartedly agree to everything that you said. As someone who also has a single mother and who was wrong by the justice system in a different country, but I so fully agree with everything you said and all the struggles that we have to face as young children and as teenagers to just get through that. And so you’re putting words to what so many people, millions of people experience, especially children, but they don’t get to share that. They don’t don’t have that platform. So thank you so much for sharing that. Michael now I really want to turn to you as a person. And your journey from incarceration to national and global leadership and movements is very radical. I think what really helped you to begin to heal, or what do you believe was that healing? Um, what really made it possible? And if your younger self saw you today, what do you think they’d say to you?

Rondo Bonilla: Um, yeah. Um, my my inspiration to keep on going was nothing short of my support system. And I’m gonna say this and not even just support system. People who seen me go from one way of living to another. I have friends or family, I have coworkers, I have correctional officers who’ve seen me have one way of living. Right? And when I started doing this work, I was very embarrassed because I was known for having this perception of being tough, this perception of being a gangster. Um, so now that I’m doing this work and I’m talking about policies and implementing, you know, uh, laws, people are looking at me like, bro, is this kid lost his mind?

Um, but my support system was really the ones that was like, yo, I can’t believe you’re really doing this. Like, yo, you really giving us hope? Especially my friends like I grew up with. They see what I do. I got friends who’s incarcerated, who I speak to all the time, who’s hearing about what I’m doing because the correctional officers is telling them, Rhonda was just here last week. He came and spoke to the to the guys and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That is really the that’s really my motivation. Um, because people see themselves in me, right? Like I said, I’m from the Bronx, New York, Crotona Park North. We we don’t get to make it as far as organizations, as Reform Alliance. Right. I mean, it was it was nothing short of God. And I, I took that moment and I ran with it, and I ran with it wholeheartedly because I wanted to change my life and because of my passion to do something different. I have so many other kids who look up to me as an like, as somebody that they want to try to be as not as, you know, a leader or anything like that, but they just want to do what I’m doing.

When I go back into jails, they all know who I am. They they, the COOs talk about me like I’m still there, right? Like he was in the same program. Now he’s out there performing like he’s doing what he had to do. Um, and I’m I’m being added lived experience that we all want to feel. Um, so that was really keeping me going. Like, they, I, I get it every almost every day whenever I post something on Instagram like, yo, I’m so proud of you. you really came a long way. My mom is super happy for me. My grandfather, like my support system, is really what keeps me going.

And then it’s like my coworker here when I first came to the Reform Alliance, Anoushka I tell you, I, I had no idea how to how to navigate through the nonprofit world. Right? Like, I’m a kid who just came out of jail, who was living in the streets, like, over for over a decade, just running around in the streets. I had no idea how to navigate through a nonprofit. I had no idea how to act in this type of environment. They held my hand, they walked me through it. And so I was able enough to get to a point where they could let my hand go and let me run around. When I first came and it was so many things that I’ve done, I was just stupid. I just didn’t know that any other, you know, place would have just gave me the they would have just fired me, you know, they would never even gave me the opportunity to grow, gave me the opportunity to marinate in this work and grow.

Um, so I really gotta give a shout out to, reform, my support system, my family, my friends. They really keep me going. Like people tell me every day, yo, I’m so proud of you. And nobody even know. That’s, like, such a cliche thing to say. Nobody knows how much it means to me because of how much I had to fight internally to get to this point where I’m extremely happy doing this work without having to worry about the criticism of peers who I once knew in my past life. So, um, to me, it’s just the it’s the people who’s giving me, you know, the praise. And they’re like, yo, I can’t wait till I come home. I’m gonna call you bro. Please tap me in. Like just being able to navigate people to get to a point where they can actually get real help, that can really change their life. It’s just a blessing to be a part of that position to do so.

Anoushka Sinha: So I see that you carry not just your own experiences, but the weight of your community stories. How do you stay grounded while holding so much of that history, that trauma, so to speak, yours and theirs?

Rondo Bonilla: Yeah, you you definitely got to take personal time. Um, you have to. It’s very important, right? Like, for me, I meditate, I’ll go play basketball. And I have something called offline where I’m completely offline. Phone is off, computers off, iPad is off. I’m probably a house, you know, just relaxing because it when you’re carrying the weight of other people’s trauma and you have undealt with trauma, if you don’t give time to that trauma to embrace it, you will definitely clash out, right? Um, and you, you will start to feel very tired. It is very tiring carrying the weight of my entire neighborhood of where I’m from on my shoulders every day, because I know that if I mess up, there’s dozens of people who won’t get an opportunity to get somewhere in life because I didn’t help them. And I’m the type of guy who’s going to walk you through every single step. So I have to have personal time. Like I have to have my weekends where I go play ball and I run for six hours straight because I have to do it like I have to. If I don’t sweat that out, you know, um, I might be on a call with somebody, right? Who’s very tough on crime.

And the only way to really create change. Like I said, if never change, we need stories, right? People who have these experiences, who’ve made it to a certain level that can speak to that. Um, so everybody don’t be like, well, tough on crime. Lock them up. And you got to be able to have that patience, especially in this work like reform we’re bipartisan. So we need to work with both sides of the aisle. You know, um, we live in a climate where it’s very, very, very, very complicated to even speak about what side of the aisle that you’re on. Right. Like it’s very difficult. So you got to be able to stay grounded. You got to give yourself that personal time. You got to give yourself some praise. You got to just take get away from social media, get away from phone calls, get away from emails. Just go have a walk in Central Park park. Go do a bike ride for hours. Go burn out that sweat. And when you come back, you. You’re charged up Like you have to have a balance of personal time. Because if doing this work, you’re carrying the weight of others all the time. So if you don’t give yourself the, the, the, the praise to really just thank yourself for even being able to get up and do this work. You’re gonna burn out. And that’s a lot of people, you know, who are passion driven about work, end up getting burnt out because they don’t give themselves that personal time. Personal time is critical. And the criminal justice reform, you need to give yourself time.

Anoushka Sinha: I 1,000% agree. I think burnout is so real, and especially with us young activists and advocates who are carrying the weight of what all wrong our previous generations have done. And we’re really trying to change that. And in between holding hope and being human, we forget that We need to strike that balance in taking care of ourselves as well. So I absolutely love how you were able to break that down for us. Um, Michael, now on to my next question for you is a little bit more about your work with Reform Alliance, and you’re really working to bring about reform to change probation and parole systems. And what really, you know, does justice mean for young people who have been wronged by the systems who are inside of these systems? So I think I want to ask you, and I think a lot of young people want to hear from your end, what’s one thing most people, especially young people, don’t understand about these systems? That should really be something that they should know.

Rondo Bonilla: Absolutely. Um, I think especially for young folks, um, a lot of people think that it can’t happen to them. I think that’s the biggest thing, right? Um, and not necessarily being to them. Exactly. It could be. It could be a brother, it could be a sister, it could be a grandfather, anybody can go to jail. You don’t necessarily gotta cause harm to another individual to get sent back to jail. You gotta have fines that you’re not paying. You can get sent back to jail for that. You could, you know, you know, you could hop the train, right? You didn’t cause anybody any harm. You could get sent to jail for that. There are so many different ways that you can get sent back to jail. That doesn’t necessarily have to do with harming people. So I think that for young folks, a lot of people, when they hear criminal justice reform, when they hear criminal justice, they think of violent crimes, they think of violent crimes. You have to understand and remember, like I said earlier, 90% of people are going to come back home one day or another like they’re going to come back home.

So you, you, it it is literally almost impossible to try to create this narrative on tough on crime, tough on crime, tough on crime. Because you can be tough on crime. You can give somebody 25 years, they’re still going to come home eventually, right? Whether that’s whether they’re in their 40s or 50s. How do you want this person to come home? How do you want them to come home? Um, I think young folks, you know, um, we’re very like, I’m not going to say naive, but we’re we’re the we’re definitely the type of generation that. Oh, it’s not us until it happens to us. Like and until until until we’re touched by the fire. Then that’s when we want to say something.

So this, this education as well, there a lot of young folks are really lacking education, and I think that’s a, that, that, that is something that’s really critical, especially when we’re talking about criminal justice reform space, because you need to have knowledge on what’s going on. You can’t just come in here and talk off what you think you know. You know, you would get shut down immediately. You gotta have statistics and facts about the things that you’re trying to talk about. So when you’re talking about young folks, you need to be educated. Um, and you also and like I said, we don’t think it can happen to us until it happens, right? It doesn’t matter how rich, how poor you are, one mistake away from being incarcerated. It doesn’t matter how small, how big, how how medium. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Like, you know, um, like it’s just the, the like people think we just don’t think it can happen to us.

And I’m really just trying to bridge that gap of like, listen, like it can be anybody. Like, I’m from a place in New York where people just often forget about us. Like a lot of people, a lot of kids, like I said, a lot of kids pass away before they get to 21. I can give you ten names known personally who’ve died from gun violence, didn’t even get a chance to make it to 21. A lot of them didn’t even really 18, right? I’m from the Bronx, New York. it’s the poorest borough. Like we don’t get to be people like me. Don’t get into these spaces a lot and get to teach and get to preach their testimony about how they got here and the things that they had to overcome and things like that. We don’t really get that opportunity enough. So I’m using this space to really, you know, push for the brothers and sisters who’s from these communities that want to get to these spaces, like, yo, you can do this too. I was there as well.

So like I said, it’s just people gotta understand and know, like, don’t wait until it’s too late to try to take action, right? Like when the conductor is trying to show you how to do it, pay attention. Because at any given moment, the accident can happen and you want to be prepared for when it does. Um, so just exposure, like people just got to know an education, exposure education. Um, and uh, and storytelling is like really the things that this generation really need to know, like they, they have to absolutely pay attention to that. Um, it’s it’s a key. It’s a key element of how the world is going to go within the next ten years. Gen Z is upcoming leaders and ten, ten years. Seven years. You’re going to see Gen Zers, people who are born in the 2000 and in the policy space and the ones passing these bills, getting bills passed like Gen Z is up next. Judges, lawyers stay represented like we’re next. A lot of these people who are in these spaces are like, you know, are in their 60s, in their 70s with old ways of thinking, we’re in a new world order, right. And we got to be able the only consistency in this world has changed. That’s the only thing that’s going to be consistent is change. So we got to be able to navigate with that. Gen Z is the the old is the is the first for the old and the first for the new. We went from DVDs to, to to to Apple TVs. Right. We navigate that. So we gotta be able to take that same navigation from the 90s ways to 2000 ways within the criminal justice reform space, because if we don’t, we will be stuck with the 1980s ways of thinking, criminal justice reform, what’s the whole new world order, so we got to be able to figure out and navigate how the new generation can play their role and contribute, uh, uh, mass incarceration, um, and just exposure to the criminal justice reform space.

Anoushka Sinha: Wow, wow, wow. I have to give you an applause. I hope people were taking notes because every word you said is gold. And how you play such a lot of emphasis on exposure and education and how we really need to step up as we are the next generation of these leaders that we’re seeing right now. We are the ones who are going to be on the front lines, who are still on the front lines right now. And so it’s really important to supplement whatever vision you have of this future with strategy and data. Thank you so much for that multi-layered response. And you just delivered everything vision strategy in your heart. And now I want to go on to something that is important because the work that you’re doing is going to have impact on a lot of future generations to come. And I want to talk about your legacy. What do you want this generation to remember about how we showed up for justice? What’s the legacy you want to leave behind?

Rondo Bonilla: The legacy I want to leave behind. That’s a really good question. The legacy I want to leave behind, especially like for like this generation, I definitely want to be able to leave, like. I want to be able to I want to be able to provide, you know, um, not a second chance, a fair chance. I want to leave that that legacy behind that anybody I came in contact with who needed assistance on reintegrating back into society or just needed assistance while, you know, while being out before incarceration of ways to, you know, um, to help with any type of thing that they’re going through. I want to be able to leave behind that. I was the one who bridged the gaps, um, because they’re a pretty big gap, um, within the criminal justice reform space, because a lot of people said, like I said, like they don’t think that it can happen to them. So I want to be able to bridge that narrative, bridge that gap. Um, and I want to be able to really bring people together from all different walks of life because as you know, as being, you know, as doing this work and speaking in a whole bunch of different rooms, you got to be able to know the, the, the audience. You gotta know your audience, right? If you’re coming into a room, um, filled with, you know, like millionaires, they want to feel, they want to know why should they contribute to this? Cause if you’re coming in the room for the kids who need help, they want to know why should they trust you, um, with their deepest, darkest secrets to help them get somewhere. So I want to leave behind that. I was somebody who poured their heart out. Um.

And I want this generation to. With the work that I’m doing. Hopefully it can happen. Um, I want to be able to leave that behind. Now, we’re the generation that really pushed for narrative change and used social media to really push for things that we care about. Um, I’m on Tik Tok, I’m on Instagram, I’m on Twitter, I’m on I’m I’m on everything. And I do see that when a trend happens, the first generation you see is Gen Z, whether that’s dancing, whether that’s a cooking talk or what if that’s just a skit? Um, the first gen, you see the hop on all hop on the wave is Gen Z. So we have the potential of touching millions through our little smartphones, So I just want to be able to leave behind that. I was somebody who figured out a way that made criminal justice reform appealing and fun to the naked eye, like somebody who just really didn’t care about this issue or just in general. I want to be able to make this fun. This work is not fun yet. Um, because, you know, policy. Policy is never really fun, right? It’s heartbreaking. It’s emotional. Um, it’s it’s heavy lifting, but I want to be able to leave this the like the I poured my heart out in this field and I made it fun to do so. You can’t touch every heart. You can’t change every mind, and you got to be able to accept that. So like with me, I just want to be able to put my heart out, put my heart on my sleeve and touch as many minds and hearts as possible. That I was somebody who organically, authentically woke up every day and try to at least change one heart. Because all you need is one. That one person might be able to go and touch seven people. He might be able to go touch one person. He might be able to go touch 20. I just want to be able to leave that every day. When I woke up, I poured my heart out on my sleeve to try to get somebody to either care about criminal justice reform, take action about criminal justice reform, or simply just talk about it within their communities.

Anoushka Sinha: I mean, you’re so right. People often underestimate the impact that they can make with their voice. Even if you’re touching one life, you are unintentionally changing the life of the generations to come for that person, for that family. And so you really, definitely should use your voice. And I think your legacy is bold. And here we’re going to remember Michael as a firebrand as that, never giving up change maker or someone who would always stand up for rights, someone who was never silenced by power or policy. Someone who always may be the outcast but was always ready to stand up for what was right. And now I want to pivot to the next question. And that’s about we’re always asking ourselves, what world are we building? But if you had to name the one thing that you’re building first, what would that be?

Rondo Bonilla: I’m unbuilding this broken system. Right. Um, parole. Probation specifically was created for either post incarceration. Like an alternative to incarceration. That’s what probation was created for. Um, and parole was to get out of jail early because you were doing something productive that seemed that you were, a person that can live in the community and thrive in a community. We lost that sense of hope. Um, you know, here at Reform, we’re we’re we’re heavy on on policy implementation. Um, that’s that’s where a policy implementation based nonprofit and, you know, technical violations do deem up to 300,000 people, 200,000 people per year. Right. And what that is, is terms and conditions you have to follow by being on parole and probation. This is not a crime, right? There are things on there like being late to a meeting, being in a room with somebody as a felon, being in the same room as somebody who’s drunk. These are things people can get sent back to jail for. Um, and when you look at it and you take a step back, you see that we put over $300 billion into incarceration in general, whether that’s federal, whether that’s ICE, everything that’s detention center based in the United States of America, we’re over $300 billion per year investing in all of these things.

Now, what if we took 2 billion and put that in the community that was suffering from poverty? Just $2 billion is not that much compared to its $300 billion giant. Um, so what would happen if we start to put some of this money in these communities? When I was growing up, we had a lot more boys and girls clubs. Um, we had a lot more recreation centers. Things were free. Now, if I want to go to the YMCA, I got to pay $110 a month just to go to the gym, work out and play ball and go swimming. What if a lot of people can’t afford that? Um, I used to pay $30 for YMCA back when I was like 13, and and my mom paid it and she was able to get like, eight people on the plan. So we’ve come to a place where everything is payment driven. You gotta have money. Um, so I’m unbuilding this broken? It’s not even broken. It’s never worked. It’s never worked. We have people incarcerated in certain facilities in these states that are doing hard labor for free. It’s slavery. You know, we got people who’s working outside in the community, working in amusement parks, working in the governor’s office down in Alabama. They’re working down in, in in the in the governor’s mansion. They have prisoners working on these things. Um, they get nothing. It’s slavery. So I’m I’m dismantling all of that. I’m breaking down the system where there are profiting off of these young brothers, people, brothers and sisters all over the States who are profiting off of them because of their booking case number.

Um, I don’t know if you guys know this, but every person who was in jail, um, somebody receiving money from that, somebody down the line is receiving money every day. That somebody is staying in jail. Every single day they get a payment because of (241) 210-1019. That was my booking case number. I can never forget it. Um, somebody was profiting off me every day. in the 19.5 months, I was sitting there. Somebody was profiting off this booking case number. So I’m dismantling all of that. I’m fighting against that because I see and I know the power that we have, especially Gen Z. If we get a hundred million people to go against the system, we will win. But we also need leaders like ourselves who are up front lined, who are speaking about this because a lot of kids just don’t know, and they’re not going to go in their phone and say, how can I get involved in this work? They need to hear something that’s going to spark something that’s going to say, wow, I want to be able to contribute to this cause. What can I do to help with that? So I’m fighting against this $300 billion giant. Um, it probably will take my whole entire lifespan, but I’m going to do it one way or another, and I am dedicated on hurting this $300 billion giant. If I get 50 million taken away from that, well, if it’s a million, what if it’s a billion? Um, one, that is a great step in the right direction. So I’m dismantling the $300 billion giant called the mass incarceration system. Like the I’m fighting it. I’m fighting it. I, I’m passionate. I’m fighting this $300 billion giant and it needs to be dismantled immediately.

Anoushka Sinha: That’s amazing. And I think we’re in this fight together with you. And thank you for naming what must be dismantled so clearly, because I know that the system was not meant for people like you and me. And so it’s important that we stand on ground, and this clarity really matters, because we really can’t build the future unless we first call out the present. So thank you so much for that, Michael. And now I want to ask you finally, if your younger self, the one first entering Rikers, could see you right now in this very moment, leading Gen Z into justice reform and policy. What do you think he would say to you?

Rondo Bonilla: Anything is possible. I’m so proud of you. I really wish I could really, you know, show a vision of, like, how much and like, how much I was invested into the streets, into living fast, into getting fast money. Uh, like that was my everything. I really thought that that was the only way I can thrive in this world. Whether I just got to take shortcuts and cut other people off. Um, my younger, my younger self would definitely be surprised. Probably joy all the way on the floor dropped. Can’t pick it up because I didn’t know that this was another way of living. I didn’t know that there was anything else greater than the streets out there. I just didn’t know. And this just sounds so cliche, but that’s that’s what’s really going on with a lot of the young brothers and sisters in these communities that are suffering from poverty. I mean, we just don’t know that there’s greater things out there. And like, it just calls to do everything differently. Like even if you want to go to school, it cost like if you don’t got a family, like if you don’t got any type of tuition, if you don’t got anybody with you, you can’t even go to college. I didn’t think I could go to school. how can I go to school? my mom’s barely making it. We got three of us, like, I can’t how this. I didn’t think it was possible because of what I was so used to seeing and living in, you know?

Um, so I would definitely tell myself, like, yo, I’m looking at a living testimony that people can overcome their challenges and where you’re from does not dictate who you are. And you and your past does not dictate your present or your future. Um, I would definitely tell myself that. And I also would tell myself that, you know, you are your greatest motivator. I look in the mirror every day, and I’m motivated by myself because I used to look in the mirror every day, and I used to see something different, like completely different than what I see myself now. I see myself now as an anchor, as a somebody who can be utilized to get other kids, other, other minds, other hearts changed. When we’re talking about mass incarceration, when we’re talking about criminal justice reform, when we’re talking about tough on crime, like, I’m I’m that guy who who can literally give you seven, 70,000 different scenarios of kids who overcame challenges because of having that support system. Just having that support system, that one person makes all. I definitely would tell my younger self man, I’m super proud of you. I’m so proud of you. And like, you are literally the definition of raising the bar, I definitely reached a certain level that people have been hungry to get to, and hungry to see somebody in the community with you as well. So just being able to be that one person that was like, yo, Rhonda could do it, you can do it. My younger self would definitely be super motivated behind that. Um, so I definitely would tell my younger self that that was so beautiful.

Anoushka Sinha: I am so moved, and I think this conversation is going to stay with me for a very, very long time. Not just because of how you’re really spoken about each and every single one of this issue with so much authenticity, because of how much passion you have, or because you continue to be that example that so many young people want to have in their lives. You’re like this big brother who really, you know, came out of situations which were beyond their control. They were messed up by the system, but they decided to take control of their own lives and decided to do it without any fear. So I’m so, so proud of you. And when I look in the mirror, I’d say that, you know, I want to be like Michael. And there are so many young people who would say that, you know, I want to be like Michael, and the work that he’s doing is inspiring, and I wish to do that level of work. So it is amazing what you’re doing, and you’re really showing us what it means to turn survival into leadership. And I know that version of you that young Ronda would be so, so damn proud. So, Michael, last but not the least, if you have one piece of advice for every young person or anyone around who’s listening to you right now at this very moment, whether it’s day or night or evening, wherever they’re tuning in from, what would that piece of advice be?

Rondo Bonilla: Do what you can do for free, right? Um, can I say that to say because like when I said when I first started, I was passion driven, but I wasn’t fully tapped into, you know, this passion that I didn’t know I had for this work. You can’t do something as a career if you’re just doing it for a check. Be do something that you can do that you would do for free now. Like do all the exposure that I have reform. I wouldn’t even need a check to keep doing this work. I would be fine doing this work as an intern. Also, don’t be afraid to start, somewhere and build your way up. Never be comfortable where you’re at. There’s always a there’s always room for improvement. There’s always room for growth. And accept and accept and I repeat, accept constructive criticism, especially from people who are older than you. Um, one of my best friends. His name is Jerry Begay. He’s my coworker. He’s 71 years old. He did 33 years in prison. I learned more from that man than I did reading the dictionary. And I say that because he has so much lived experience on everything that I already endured, might endure, or had thoughts about enduring. He already lived through it. So he can give me his, you know, his guidance on how he got through those times. And I can implement those in life. So be open, stay open. And because our young folks we’re very naive and we think we know it all, we don’t, we don’t. Um, this is a very big world out there, and we only know, but so much stay open, be open to constructive criticism. Do the work that you would do for free as a career. Um. And stay motivated and have personal time. You cannot do this work, any type of work that you’re doing seven days a week without no personal time. No NBA player is in the gym seven days a week without taking no breaks. You have to take care of yourself. You can’t take care of others if you’re not taken care of. Um, so that’s all the advice I would give to all the young leaders out there who will be listening to this podcast. Just stay tuned. Stay true to yourself and be open to constructive criticism and do any and your career. Do a career that you would do for free without any check. That’s how you know you would stay passion driven. And I’ll leave it with that.

Anoushka Sinha: Wow, Michael. Thank you. You’ve really shown us throughout this short time we’ve spent here that justice is not just something we ask for or demand for, it’s something we build together, even in the rubble. So for everyone listening right now, if you were moved by this conversation, don’t stop. Share this episode with people you know would benefit from it. Follow Michael’s work through the Reform Alliance. We’ll be sharing all of the socials right now at any platforms that you’re streaming this episode on. Support young people. We’re not just telling their stories, but shaping systems who are right across the street from you, who are in your communities.