Defending Justice in an Age of Autocracy: A Conversation with UN Special Rapporteur Meg Satterthwaite

Grace Hulseman: Hello and welcome to conversations with Young Justice Leaders, My name is Grace Hulseman, and I’m thrilled to be joined today by Meg Satterthwaite, a professor of law at New York University, where she is the faculty director of both the center for Human Rights and Global Justice and the Robert L Bernstein Institute for Human Rights, as well as the director of the Global Justice Clinic. Additionally, Meg serves as the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers. Her research interests include legal empowerment, vicarious trauma and well-being among human rights workers, and interdisciplinary methods of human rights. Meg, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.

Meg Satterthwaite: Well, thanks so much for inviting me, Grace. It’s great to talk with you.

Grace: To get started, I wanted to ask a little bit more about your own personal career progression and journey into justice and development. You’ve served as the UN Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers since October 2022. The role of the UN special rapporteur is incredibly important, but may not be well known to many. Could you briefly describe what this role is and how you became the UN Special Rapporteur?

Meg: Sure, sure. No, I really welcome that question because it’s a very, um, technical sounding title, and it’s always helpful to try to make it more relatable. Um, so there’s a set of human rights, um, what are called mandate holders? These are independent experts who are appointed by the Human Rights Council of the UN, but were not actually staff of the UN. So we’re volunteer experts and we’re given a specific mandate, which is why we’re called mandate holders. Often the mandate is whatever is the name of the of the UN Special Rapporteur title. So my mandate is on the independence of judges and lawyers. That is um, again, maybe sounds very technical because it’s about the role of judges and lawyers in upholding the rule of law, but it also encompasses, um, making sure that justice systems are working for people, um, and making sure that those who need to be, um, ensuring that their independent and impartial are doing that and are making them accessible and fair for everyone. So that’s the idea of my mandate in terms of how you become a special rapporteur.

Um, it’s a it’s a funny path because you do have to put yourself forward and that can be really hard. I found it a little bit challenging, uh, to think about that. But you, you do have to apply. And there is um, as with any application, there’s a application packet which involves, um, putting together in letters of recommendations. So I remember thinking that maybe someday I wouldn’t have to keep getting. Letters of recommendation. But. But you still have to do that, I think, throughout your career. And then, um, there’s a process where you’re interviewed by a set of diplomats and they create a short list, and then they recommend their top three people in the Human Rights Council. Then through the action of the president appoints you. I hope that wasn’t too much information, but that’s that’s basically how I became the rapporteur.

Now, just really briefly on what we do, we have three main activities. The first is we can undertake, um, official country visits. These are only at the invitation of the country and they are only two per year. These are in-depth two week long investigations into the human rights within our mandates. We then come out with an official report to the Human Rights Council with recommendations. The second piece is we get individual complaints, which are known as allegation letters, which we can then turn into communications or official letters to the government concerned bringing forward human rights concerns and seeking clarification of the facts that are alleged. And the idea there is to start a dialogue and hopefully to improve the human rights situation at hand, to clarify facts, etc.. The final thing we do is we write thematic reports. Thematic reports are on any topic within our mandate, and the purpose is to bring to light some new issue or some issue that needs more attention, and sometimes to also help develop the law in that area and to help bring attention to a specific dynamic or problem or concern. That’s enough for me on the role, but I hope it gives you a bit, a bit of a better sense of what we do.

Grace: No, absolutely. That’s super helpful and just great context for us to have for this conversation. So building off of that, you know, looking back on your career thus far, is there a particular defining moment that stands out to you as having set you on your current career path and your work as a special rapporteur. As a lawyer, um, and your work within academia and NYU?

Meg: Yes. Um, it’s pretty easy to think of it because it was so formative for me. So in 1995, I was hired by the Haitian government to serve as an investigator for the Truth and Reconciliation. Well, it wasn’t the Truth and Reconciliation Committee. It was the Truth and Justice Commission. And as an international investigator, I was assigned to a team of, all Haitian men. So there were there was a lawyer, two assistants and then a driver. And basically we were given a map and told this was our province. And then we also had a handheld radio, and we were told to go find as many victims as we could of the de facto regime. That radio was our security. This was way before cell phones, of course. Um, and so we drove over this set of mountains, found out that the radio didn’t work, and spent seven weeks together driving to different little towns and trying to find people. Convinced them to trust us enough to tell them to tell us what had happened to them during the de facto regime. And we collected testimony that was then handed back to the commissioners, who wrote a report making recommendations and findings about the patterns of human rights violations during the de facto regime and what they what they suggested the government do to repair and seek justice for those victims.

There’s a lot to say about that effort. Um, but to to say why it was important to me, it was the first time I had seen a human rights lawyer working on the ground in a way that I understood the skills he had as a skill set that I wanted. So I had already been a human rights advocate, but I hadn’t gone to law school, so I had been able to get this job. But I didn’t have that technical skill set that he had. And seeing him able to bring it to bear made me realize I wanted to have those legal tools. And so that sent me to law school, which of course totally changed my life. But it’s also important, I think, for me as a story, because it reminds me that even if you’re not a lawyer, you can be doing highly technical, professional human rights and justice work. It’s just a different kind or it’s a different. You’re bringing a different set of skills to it. So that would be the the point I would, would, would um, draw as a real a real changing point or a real tipping point for me for, for knowing I wanted to do human rights for my career.

Grace: Wow. That sounds like a very powerful experience and I’m sure continues to shape maybe your work and how you look at it nowadays. Absolutely. So going back to your work currently as the special repertoire, as you said, you’re responsible for securing the independence of global justice systems by identifying and investigating attacks, pursuing opportunities to strengthen justice services, and collaborating with actors throughout the UN system during your tenure in this role. What have you seen to be the greatest threats to judicial independence?

Meg: Yeah, this is such a great question. So I’m going to point to one thing which has lots of different fingers or different iterations around the world, and that is this large wave of what’s often called autocracy ization. So the movement from anywhere on the spectrum of autocracy over to democracy, moving toward autocracy. Um, any country can become more autocratic, even if it already started as an autocracy, or it can become more autocratic, even if it retains its its role as a democracy. Why do I mention that? Because. autocratic systems and autocratic governments want to take away the independence and impartiality of justice systems, it’s one of their number one goals. Because those systems check their power, those systems stop them from doing a lot of the things they want to do in terms of making sure that their vision of justice, their vision of the world is put into place. Taking more power, um, and exercising reprisal and and vengeance on those who don’t agree with them. So what they are now doing is really attacking independent justice systems. And that really means going after judges, going after prosecutors, going after lawyers, but also going after justice workers. So community justice workers, justice advocates of every type. And they’re trying to, um, shut them up and make sure that they can do what they want. And so for me, seeing that unfold across the world in so many different systems is a real wake up call. And so I find it really crucial to be kind of ringing the bell of alarm right now and trying to hope and shine some light onto this dynamic so that we can all stand up and try to make our mark and stop it.

Grace: Thanks for sharing that. And I want you know, what you just said connects to another question of mine. Um, so as you’ve said, you have seen this trend in countries around the world and what you, uh, remarked on, you know, has been corroborated as well in other research, such as data from the World Justice Project’s Rule of Law Index. Um, what do you think some of the driving factors are here? And I know that’s, you know, a big question. And obviously a lot of this is very context specific, but if there are some cohesive factor or cohesive trends that you see, it’d be super interesting to hear what you think is fueling this erosion.

Meg: So I think there are a lot of factors that have been pointed to kind of in the literature. And I’ll just mention a few that I think have also shown up in my work. So one of them is this idea of populism. So of having, you know, what are often called strong leaders or strong men by some advocates and some scholars who want to show everyone that they are the embodiment of the people’s will, and that’s their assertion. And with that assertion and kind of that promise, often they then try to take as much power as they can by dividing everything into us and them. And so if you’re on my side, you’re with us. If you’re not, we’re going to shut you down, put you in jail. Um, you know, make sure that you don’t have funding, expel you, deport you. Um, all of these things I think have a lot in common. And the reason I’m mentioning it in relation to my mandate is because one of the key factors is to really denigrate judges. So to start talking about them as the elite, as the enemy of the people, as not being democratic.

Um, and, and so I think when people don’t understand kind of what the role of an independent judiciary is, it’s really easy to think that it’s easy to think, oh, yeah, judges, they kind of sit on their, you know, big bench and they have their gavel and they decide what’s right and wrong. And it doesn’t seem like it is democratic. So one of the things I think is important for us to do in the face of that kind of populist attack is to remember judges are actually independent, to protect rights. So they are answered directly to the Constitution, to the laws, to international human rights, to anything that is relevant under the, the, the justice system. And they make sure that everyone has access to their rights. And we all have a right to judicial independence. It’s not the judges whose rights we’re concerned about, although that is also important. It’s the right of individual people to have access to that independent, impartial justice. And so I think defending independent justice systems is really crucial at this kind of populist moment.

Grace: That’s super interesting to hear. And I think, you know, one of my other questions for you had been about how your work as a special rapporteur impacts people in our daily lives, because I think for a lot of folks, the United Nations and these global systems can feel kind of disconnected from people’s day to day. And it sounds like from what you’re saying, that part of that impact ties into, you know, your work in ensuring that judges are able to act independently, that protection directly impacts how people engage with and experience their rights. Is that a correct interpretation?

Meg: I think that’s right. I mean, a lot of times my work, I agree. It can feel kind of technical, or seem like it would be at a certain kind of removed from regular, everyday people’s lives. But what I’ve seen is, you know, judges who are really doing their their job and are aware of their role in protecting everyone’s rights. They have an incredible stories. Um, and so I can just think, for example, of a judge in Kenya who really movingly talked to me about how he thinks about his docket. So all the cases on his desk as not only the ones that are literally there, but the ones in the community who haven’t been able to get to the court. And so he does a lot of work to try to make sure that there’s access. People can come, you know, figuratively through that door. They can find resources, they can find support to bring a case or just to get their justice problem solved, you know, to get their kid registered for school.

Um, and then another, um, thing that I think about a lot is lawyers who, again, are often just in really dire circumstances. They might be directly threatened by armed groups or by government actors who don’t like that they are, um, defending the rights of certain individuals or of communities. And so I think about those stories of say, you know, lawyers who have very few resources, but maybe are hiking out into a community in the Philippines to defend their right to ensure they have a fair access to their resources or that they’re protecting against environmental harm, maybe from a mining company or something like this. Those lawyers need our help.

Um, and then finally, just to mention community justice workers who I think are really crucial for for bringing access to justice to everyone. I think of those jailhouse lawyers here in the United States who, on a daily basis are learning the law and are helping their fellow inmates do things like try to make sure that their kids have access to, um, to school, to food stamps to make sure that they’re helping their fellow inmates, um, know what their rights are, even inside prison. So it’s a lot of stuff like that, I think really does relate to people’s daily lives, but it sounds very technical. So I think sometimes telling stories about those individuals who make up the system can be really helpful.

Grace: Absolutely. That’s a really helpful way to think about it. And I think personalizing it, you know, even for me and someone who kind of works on and studies these topics, it can be still easy for myself to get lost a little bit in the system of it all. Um, going on with some of these, you know, highlighting these individual stories that you’ve mentioned, both of people who are just as service providers, but also of folks who are seeking justice themselves, and many of them who are doing so in really dire circumstances. You know, I’ve seen in my work, I’m sure you have seen in yours that work in this space. And justice and human rights can be really challenging with change being very slow and people’s lives frequently can hang in the balance. How do you navigate those challenges? Um, both as a professional and also just as a human being engaging in this work?

Meg: Yeah, no, I think that’s so important. And I think it’s like very important for us to recognize the impact the work can have on us and, and to just, you know, share that with each other. Because I do think one of the best pieces of this work is to connect as human beings. Um, and often across these very big divides of experience and of geographic space and any number of other things. But it can be really hard. And I think in particular in times when we feel like we can never do enough. I think that’s one of the feelings that can be the most disempowering. People will often say, well, I don’t know if I’m making a difference, but I’m doing all I can, and that is a bit of a road to burnout. Um, because there’s always more you can do. And so I think it’s helpful. Um, maybe instead to think about. This is a space where I’m doing something meaningful. Here’s a place where I’m bringing what I find in value to offer, and I can see that it might have some impact on this larger system that we all have to see as a system that we each contribute to a little bit, a little bit at a time over, hopefully a lifetime of a career.

Um, but I also think it really helps to be very intentional about taking breaks, about recognizing that you need to rest, that you need to eat healthy food to get outside, um, to look at beautiful things, to, um, you know, get your body moving and into the, the natural air. And I think that’s so easy to forget when there’s so much work to do. But thinking about the kind of contribution you can make over a whole lifetime, hopefully can bring some of that pressure a little bit down and help all of us know, you know, we just bring what we can each day and that’s enough. And we have to take our break and we have to take a rest. And I think finding out ways of supporting each other is, is another, um, is another thing to just creates that, that human space for us to do our work and find thriving and find resilience.

Grace: Those are all really great points, you know, and I think that ties into another question of mine. Um, I know a lot of your work or some of your work has focused on the topic of mental health and people working in human rights. Um, and as you mentioned, you know, burnout, compassion fatigue, I think can be really, um, challenging, but, um, significant, uh, barriers that people can come up across. Um, and I think, you know, what you said about making sure to prioritize self-care really stands out to me is what sounds like a good, best practice for shoring up for workers and people working in this space their own mental health while working on these challenging topics.

Meg: Totally, totally. And another little anecdote. I had a colleague, um, who was visiting a couple years ago from Haiti, and he happened to be staying over the weekend, and so we were going somewhere together, and he said, like, why do you guys work so much? Like, I feel like you, you work for human rights, but then you don’t take time off. And it was such an important observation. And also like in a way very funny because, um, it was so obvious to him that this was absurd. And to me, I found myself having a hard time explaining it. And so it was a really good reality check around. Like, you know, everybody has to find joy where they are. And it’s not like we can wait until we get to justice to have a break, you know, like we have to enjoy ourselves and take those breaks along the way.

Grace: No, definitely. I think, you know, there’s that saying of you can’t pour from an empty cup. And I remember that was one that, um, you know, was told to me. And I have also repeated to myself and to others over the years, and I find myself, you know, it’s sometimes easier said than done. But to your point, this is really about the long game. And a lot of these are changes that will take years or even generations. Um, but I like the idea of, yeah, continuing to do good work, but making sure that it’s done sustainably and in community, I would think, you know, yeah, I know you were also at the World Justice Forum a few weeks ago, and I always get so energized getting to be in person with other people who are doing this really incredible work and getting to, um, not only hear from them and learn from them and share with them, but also to just have those friendships and, you know, collegial relationships that can be really, uh, serve as boys.

Meg: Absolutely. I think that’s so true. And I love the the empty cup, um, kind of reminder as well. And I do think that, you know, it’s so important to connect with human beings in real life and to see each other. And, you know, it is very energizing in a totally different way than it is sitting on a zoom call or or listening to a podcast, which hopefully can also be energizing. But I definitely agree with you on all of that.

Grace: So thinking, um, you know, beyond just advice or guidance for people working in this space, what advice do you have for recent graduates or people who are early career professionals who are pursuing careers in development, human rights, access to justice, and other similar spaces, particularly in light of the recent funding turmoil? Um, following major cuts here in the US to the US investment in foreign aid. And I know there have been declines in funding from other global actors as well.

Meg: I think that’s such an important question, and I want to acknowledge that I’m like extremely privileged in this, in this way, to be at this point, I am in my career and to have, you know, a full time job that allows me to do the work that I love. Um, I think it is a really hard time, and I think that in many ways it reminds me of much earlier times in this field when there wasn’t as much funding to start with. Um, where you would kind of have to have a plan A and a plan B, the plan A being, you know, I’ll be able to get a dream job followed by another dream job, you know, along a trajectory. But plan B is sort of like, well, here are the other things I don’t mind doing to fund my work in justice or in human rights or in development. And I unfortunately think we probably need to be doing that kind of planning again.

Um, you know, there is a lot more flexibility now. It’s a gig economy, and that comes with some real negatives that I think we could rattle off very easily. But some of the positives are that sometimes you can cross-subsidise your work by doing some paid work and then also doing volunteer work. Um, and just a really brief anecdote here when I got involved in human rights for a really long time ago, toward the end of my college years, and before I went to graduate school, I had in my home Amnesty International’s um, program for lesbian and Gay concerns before it existed. So it was kind of out of my home. I did a newsletter every quarter, and the effort was to try to make sure that the human rights movement started taking on LGBTQ work. And I had to do that by, you know, doing other jobs. And it was incredibly meaningful and fulfilling. It was also really exhausting because I was doing it at night and everything. But I think that we might be back in a space where more of that needs to happen. And, um, that goes back to the well-being piece. I think we’re going to need to really appreciate each other for that kind of volunteer work, for that kind of, um, you know, taking time away from the field to get some funds up, um, or finding ways to do the work as a volunteer. Um, and I hope that those of us who are in positions where we can, um, you know, hire people or mentor people, that we can be sensitive to that. And I think also sensitive to the kinds of burdens of student loans that people have, the family responsibilities. There’s just so much that that comes with being a young person right now. And, um, I do think it’s a really hard time. And so I think it’s a time when we have to kind of step up and see this again as a space where we need to extend solidarity and and support to each other.

Grace: Those are all great points. You know, I find myself thinking sometimes about the field and my background in education is more in the international development space. But I find myself thinking sometimes about what feel like startup costs to getting a career in the field. But not only undergraduate, but also graduate education often applied experience language training. Um, and I like the idea of, uh, admittedly, I’m someone who can be quick to fall into maybe, like, all or nothing thinking of like, oh, I have to have a full time job in this space. Like it has to be a full career. But your point about, you know, sometimes balancing paid work with volunteer work, which I think can also, at least for me, feel very life giving and having that diversity of engagement and work, um, not only for financial and logistical reasons, but also is like a way to live a really multifaceted life is a great way to to look at it as opposed to being like, oh, if I’m not all in on the field, then it doesn’t count.

Meg: So true. And I think that goes back to like just us knowing that a lot of this work is is a vocation for many people. It’s a sense of meaning and calling and, um, a desire to make a big change in the world and supporting each other in that way, I think is important. And, recognizing when it’s possible to do that. And when it’s possible to lend a hand, I think is really important.

Grace: Absolutely. And speaking of lending a hand, my last question for you is how can our audience and our listeners support your work as Special rapporteur and broader efforts to protect judicial independence?

Meg: So I love this question. I think it’s more how can I help your audience? But to be to to be fair to your question and to really answer it. Um, I do think it’s a moment in pretty much every country around the world where it’s helpful to start talking about judicial independence and to start talking about the rule of law more broadly and why it matters at a daily level. And so I think the more that people can kind of bring this up with each other, I think it will have an educational impact. I think it will have a sense, um, it will give people a sense that it’s something relevant. And hopefully they’ll ask those questions in the public sphere. They’ll, um, demand more coverage of these issues in the media and also eventually that that will translate into protection under the law and in practice. But I think just becoming more aware of the issues, watching out for the the news. And, you know, right now, I think there is a lot of, um, there’s a lot of advocacy that needs to be done to support judicial independence and equal access to law. And I think there’s a ton of both volunteer and career opportunities out there in this field. And so watch out for those as well. And please, of course, also feel free to reach out to me via my UN website.

Grace: Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. Um, information. Will be sure to share hopefully the link to your website along with this podcast. Um, but thank you again so much for your time, Meg. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with us.

Meg: Well, it was a delightful. Grace, thank you so much. And, um, you know, great work on your leadership. And I look forward to, you know, staying in touch with you and following you as you progress.

Grace: Wonderful. Thanks so much.